"Sure, any doorknob can get behind a computer and crank out some bleeps, blips and squelches. But it takes a craftsman to get behind a keyboard or a drum machine, and make something that people enjoy, and that's pleasing to the intellect as well as the ear, or pleasing to the soul, or whatever that inner thing is that makes people appreciate music. It takes craftsmanship and hardwork, and I think if you look at some of the more elite guys and people who left a legacy, and have made an imprint, you can hear the quality in their music. It's simply different from a run of the mill person, who goes out to the mall, or goes to their local music store and decides they want to make music. You know, it's about suffering the pains of having some months where you don't have a lot of money, and you're suffering. You may play a club and not a lot of people turn up. But you love what you do, and that's what separates the run of the mill guy from the guy who is a craftsman. It's taking that machine and putting feeling, putting part of you into the that machine, using electronics to not just make a song, you're trying to move people with the melody, the structure, you're trying to peak interest. And make people sit up and pay attention to what you've doing. That takes craftsmanship."
words of wisdom from dj stingray. read the full interview here at the wire. quality, thoughtful exchange. definitely worth taking the time to read. we need more stuff like this.
How do you see your craft developing (if indeed it is a ‘craft’ to you)? And how is technology influencing this?
ReplyDelete‘Craft’ is no longer suspect to a lot of electronic producers. Especially in the house genre. Everybody wants to be a full-on musician. I think that makes a lot of music complacent, because we stop challenging social norms around how music should sound or be performed.
As for technology, does anybody else find it unbelievably patronizing that the default file name for most Apple software follows the formula ‘My…’ – ‘My Disc’, ‘My Song’, ‘My Movie’, etc.? It's a real sign of how we've socially come to project personal identity onto corporately structured media. It goes hand in hand with the rise of the ‘DJ as Artist’.
- Terre Thaemlitz, 'Consciousness is Queen interview (for us! :) )
http://mnmlssg.blogspot.com/2008/03/consciousness-is-queen-ssg-boys-get-q.html
"Sure, any doorknob can get behind a computer and crank out some bleeps, blips and squelches. But it takes a craftsman to get behind a keyboard or a drum machine, and make something that people enjoy, and that's pleasing to the intellect as well..."
ReplyDeleteI agree with the basic message that it takes a 'craftsman' to make great music. But I think these digs at computer made music are becoming a bit of an overkill. Yes, from professional musicians who are charging people a good amount of money to see them perform LIVE, I expect a bit more than a guy staring at a laptop. BUT as a medium for music making, in my opinion, it seems that for a lot of people, if you don't have some super expensive setup, the music you are making isn't REAL music. I find it insulting that if I can make music that means something to me on a computer, it is somehow less valid than music that is not.
thats such a good interview with terre thaemlitz. props and more like it please!
ReplyDeleteperhaps the fault lines between the craftsmanship/"proper musician" vs "challenging social norms of performance lie in two musical traditions which emerged on either side of the atlantic around about the same time?
ReplyDeletethe US' dance music tradition is steeped in the jazz/funk/disco continuum whereas the UK and Europe's tradition (broadly) springs from the fractious sociopolitical backdrop of the mid-70's which culminated in the punk/postpunk.
jazz format insists on "proper musicianship" incorporated into an improvisatory structure, whereas the punk ethos was for simple, rigid forms (here's 3 chords, now form a band) which provided a template for musical projects to create work as people learned their instruments. things get messier once you get into the late '70s and the postpunk period, the german/cosmic scene had "jazz as the teacher" as much as the New York downtowners.
I think what Ingram is talking about here though is learning the craft of creative practice. No-one really knows what they're doing when they start- the creative process is as much the process of trial and error in getting to a point where you're comfortable doing what you're doing as it is producing work. Whether you're making your stuff on a cracked copy of ableton or on a big-ass 100,000euro vintage synth array the chances are your work is going to take some time before it sounds like you. the fiction of inherent talent is as much a creation of corporately structured media as default file tags. the creation of interesting work takes work.
I agree with CT. These digs at computer music are becoming an overkill - and rather tired. Computers are simply a means to make music (d'oh!) - as is any type of musical instrument. After all, people have to start somewhere and with time and effort the idea is to get better, find and develop your 'craft' and (most of all) enjoy the process.
ReplyDeleteWe should remind ourselves of what happened in the '70s with the punk movement, which practically overturned the pop music establishment - for a while, at least - and provided a vigorous shake-up that inspired many people to form bands, because suddenly the gates had been blown open and music-creation seemed accessible to everyone who had an idea or two and the guts to put themselves out there. Anything was possible.
Decades later in the techno universe, there is a similar buzz and computers help to provide that accessibility - even though they are still expensive tools in themselves.
Sadly, it would appear that 'mnml ssgs'is becoming more and more establishment in itself. I sincerely hope that is not the aim.
This whole 'craftsmanship' argument reminds me of my father lecturing me on what is 'good' music - which is basically the stuff he likes and/or understands. He sees the rest as rubbish. To my thinking, that makes him a bigot.
I wonder if I'm reading the same interview. Ingram seems to be slating presets rather than computers.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me like people read any criticism of anything and automatically think "He's talking about me, he's slating ME, and me here at 5am slaving my face to the bone over a hot ableton!"
If you read this weeks Mike Huckaby's interview at LWE you'll hear a similar tone but one that acknowledges that there is a place for virtual studio tools, alongside or to replace hardware. It's all good, so long as you take your time and work hard to make sure the music you make is the best you can make it. If it's not good don't expect people to tell you it is.
I'm not sure if slagging computers is being taken the right way, by any of us. Stingray does admit making tracks on a laptop.
ReplyDeleteIn some ways, as a musician, it *is* harder inserting some soul into a strictly Ableton + soft synth + Vengeance samples production. The lack of knobs, for one, or just needing to go through a few extra steps to map them, leads to less spontaneous creations.
But then again it's all about the producer's vibe and the scene. Vengeance samples and the Access Virus are so associated with Trance -- does it mean you can only produce trance with these tools? Of course not. But it's sort of valid to group that together with the Trance genre.
@ Julie: I certainly don't see technology as some kind of transparent means subordinated to the artistic sovereignty of creators. I think this is an illusion of empowerment that we've been sold, and I think, personally, that I/we should realise the extent to which the frame shapes the range of possible response. Take this text box, for instance. It enables some forms of response, but disenables others...
ReplyDeleteTo wit: there's nothing wrong with tools, but beware lest ye become a tool holding a tool making tools for tools.
interesting the different ways people read something... to be honest, the reason i posted this quote from the interview had absolutely nothing to do with bashing computers / technology. you can make good music and crap music on all formats. and as tony said, stingray says elsewhere in the interview that he uses a computer for some of his productions.
ReplyDeletewhat struck me with this quote is about the dedication and the heart needed to produce special music. the artist has to give a part of him/herself. what hit me hardest was this bit:
"You know, it's about suffering the pains of having some months where you don't have a lot of money, and you're suffering. You may play a club and not a lot of people turn up. But you love what you do, and that's what separates the run of the mill guy from the guy who is a craftsman."
and that is something which could apply to a producer, whatever machines and instruments they use.
I'm not sure I agree with having to suffer to make good music. Ben Frost put it this way:
ReplyDelete"The simple answer is I like it there. Ultimately, I think people do their best work when they are happy. I think there is this fashionable short cut in post-modern music that to be an artist means you have to be inherently miserable. That was certainly the case for me before I moved away. I think my work is better for it. I do my best work when I have space around me and it is quiet and I am surrounded by people who I feel connection. That happened to be on the other side of the world."
@ Nihal:
ReplyDeleteactually, the Frost interview is one of the best things I've read in a while!
http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1173
...plenty of fodder there for this thread, too...
I don't see these comments as slating computer made music, so much as the impetus behind the music.
ReplyDeleteI have always said "The best thing about punk rock was that anyone could get a guitar and make music."
I have also said "The worst thing about punk rock was that anyone could get a guitar and make music."
Substitute "laptop" or "MPC" and extrapolate from there.
One of my biggest gripes with the electronic music "industry" is the constant stream of disposable tunes, made by DJs who want to get gigs. There is no craft, or feeling, or emotional motivation there. Just self-interest. And the industry caters to it, because it's yet more "product" to be consumed.
I want music that has a reason behind it aside from pushing units to get someone's name higher up on a flyer. Don't you?