Comments on mnml ssgs: Mangoes and lemons, apples and oranges, chalk and ...

james - i should add, thanks for the kind words, e...

2008-04-03T08:19:00.000+11:00

james - i should add, thanks for the kind words, even when you do disagree!

i guess i can't be trusted then... well, my logic ...

2008-04-03T08:18:00.000+11:00

i guess i can't be trusted then... well, my logic is that it is better i declare my bias openly.

my feeling is that there is a zone inbetween the two extremes of 'there is one way of listening/classifying/understanding this music', and 'it's all relative - different people like different things so you can't classify/judge/etc'.

What a strange and angry post. I love that Field L...

2008-04-03T01:38:00.000+11:00

What a strange and angry post. I love that Field LP - so now it looks like I'm an indie kid, even though I don't like guitars.

Now you've got me worried that I don't listen to or love techno the right way. What is this need to carve up music, apply labels, and set up a clubhouse?

Once somebody announces that they're a purist, I stop trusting them.

That said, I always enjoy your site.

I guess that makes me perverse... :)

2008-03-25T23:35:00.000+11:00

I guess that makes me perverse... :)

PC it only makes you perverse if you don't see the...

2008-03-24T09:59:00.000+11:00

PC it only makes you perverse if you don't see the glorious cross promotional opportunities with Ksubi's newest range of super low, limited edition baby seal skin stovepipes.

I dunno, Chris. 'Drug-addled masturbating wallflow...

2008-03-24T08:21:00.000+11:00

I dunno, Chris. 'Drug-addled masturbating wallflowers' is pretty good...

... but walruses would be even better. I would *really* like to see some footage of a drug-addled walrus having a wiggins... does that make me perverse?

great article. my main beef with shitfork is their...

2008-03-23T06:46:00.000+11:00

great article. my main beef with shitfork is their misrepresentation of edm.

to think great albums like Cicada's "Maladies" and The Whip's "X Marks Destination" will be overlooked in lieu of H&LA, damn shame

i really dont get what you are on about AbrasiveAn...

2008-03-22T20:35:00.000+11:00

i really dont get what you are on about AbrasiveAnon... if you bothered reading any of the above closely you'd notice that it was me who claimed to be the techno purist but i've made absolutely no mention at all about drugs at any stage. pete raised that when it was brought into the discussion by someone who left a comment. anyway, i am not sure why i am bothering to respond to your drivel with argument...

and thanks for noticing the double entendre in our blog title. good job. dont worry, we have no plan to change it.

I think my description was spot on. You can't spea...

2008-03-22T19:16:00.000+11:00

I think my description was spot on. You can't speak from a "techno purist" high horse because you're a drug addled listener of minimal. Probably a wallflower who masturbates in front of the decks too.

Don't even joke about renaming the site. Minimal sausages is a quite appropriate double entendre for the likes of you. ;)

:-x

Tastewise, it's all about the umami (旨味)...http://...

2008-03-20T11:32:00.000+11:00

Tastewise, it's all about the umami (旨味)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami

A whole post should be written on the success of Modular... I think the way they've keyed into the kids is incredible - it would give Malcom MacLaren a hard-on AND a run for his money simultaneously.

I think that, generally speaking, a lot of these subcultures are visual/aesthetic subcultures first and foremost that have a sountrack which is secondary. Techno, at least in its origins, was to a large degree an effacement of that.

But I think that the outsider spirit of the early days has given way to professionalisation... I think that Brinkmann really puts his finger on this very accurately.

I'm sick of slick, of clever, of savvy. Bring on the dirty distortions, bring out the mutants...

Thanks Chris, there are many connections along the...

2008-03-20T06:43:00.000+11:00

Thanks Chris, there are many connections along the way that have been similar to mine and I'm sure others as well. I guess the other point that has been lingering in my brain around this whole discussion is that to many people dance music is simply just that. For many it is a tool that provides them with the means to shake their proverbial. It is often seen as faceless and functional and of its place. The blurring of the boundaries seems to occur (and perhaps one of the things that underpins your premise) with the fact that many acts/labels have (rightly or wrongly) utilised marketing strategy, brand association and product placement (Modular anyone?) to create these multi-layered connections and supposed lifestyle options for the kids. Part of this strategic process is no doubt targeting the right media channels (eg Pitchfork) to drive their message to the right people in the right place. It's all very business focused and removes much of the inherent joy and simplicity from the musical experience. This is always going to jar heavily with the enthusiast and the puritan who connect with the music at generally deeper levels. It's like having a McDonald's hamburger slinger visiting your favourite Japanese restaurant and writing a review on his MySpace page about the "slices of raw fish, tantalisingly dipped in a spicy green paste, accompanied by rice, prawn and cucumber wrapped in edible green paper". Next thing you know there's a bunch of people there and you can't get your favourite corner table and their out wagyu beef. Whilst I have rambled off into a corner and now have a deep craving for sashimi, the moral of the story is that we all leave with our bellies full. The difference is that some of us linger over our meals, savour the tastes and aromas, whilst others just want their hunger sated. The interesting layer is how elements of the broad array on offer(be it techno or food) move from the shadow of the curtains into the lights of centre stage. Once they're in full view they're open to all levels of critique - on point or otherwise. Mixed analogies aside, I think there needs to be acceptance of the reality that nothing is sacred in our current climate. Have I made any relevant points beyond ranting like it's only possible in the wee hours of the morning? Probably not, however it HAS been fun!

a brief musical genealogy of chris (in reply to ni...

2008-03-19T23:33:00.000+11:00

a brief musical genealogy of chris (in reply to nik):

you are indeed right, they were some non-electronic stepping stones for me (i think there have to be), but since then, i haven't looked back.

in my early - mid teens i listened to hip hop: mainly public enemy, ice cube, ice t, nwa and so on. around 15-16 i didnt listen to too much music, to be honest, and when i did it was mainly alternative rock/indie, i guess you'd say. around 17 or so i started getting into music again. portishead and bjork were the two artists that i really listened to non-stop. from there i listened to other trip hop (especially tricky) and started getting into big beat.

my first entry into electronic music was through 'homework' by daft punk and the first two chemical bros albums. these were all very influential on me. around this time, i turned 18 and went to my first party - a ministry of sound party. from there, i listened to more big beat and a little bit of prog/trance (not much!), some house and techno. within about a year - by the middle of 1998 i was getting into techno in a big way. and since then, i havent looked back.

i dabbled with house a bit early on, but basically i was into really hard techno. from about 2000 onwards my taste started diversifying into dub techno, minimal, minimal house, experimental, ambient and italo. between those different genres and sounds, i find pretty much any mood or musical requirement of mine can be satisfied.

the only music i listen to that is not electronic is some 80s pop or early 90s (but this tends to be dance). i'd say about 95% of the music i listen to - and have done so over the last decade - has been electronic. as i said, i find all my different moods can be covered.

hopefully that answers your question!

Really interesting discussion all, I don't think t...

2008-03-19T21:52:00.000+11:00

Really interesting discussion all, I don't think there is a lot I can add. What originally came across to me as a fairly techno protectionist position has evolved into an interesting discussion devoid of the usual "my taste is better your taste" chest beating that afflicts many music-related debates. The one thing I am interested in is Chris and his self-proclaimed techno elitist position. Much like Pete and others my taste in electronic and dance music evolved from rock/indie/alternative environs, with these cornerstones still be maintained and evolved along with my techno jones. Chris I am keen to delve into the musical lineage that placed your music taste where it is today - surely there must have been non-electronic stepping stones along the way? Do you maintain any non-dance musical love? I tend to feel really dissociative and devoid of some levels of emotional connection when I listen to dance music exclusively - and this can be across all forms soul or sans soul. Care to enlighten me? This is by no means an attack, merely genuine intrigue!

a couple of comments/thoughts:1. thanks to everyon...

2008-03-19T09:47:00.000+11:00

a couple of comments/thoughts:

1. thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. it really has been an interesting, worthwhile exchange. and i think there has only been one person who has broken with that trend and provided a pointless and inaccurate desription of what 'we' are.

2. to reiterate a point pete made earlier, it is important to keep in mind that our blog is made up of a number of voices. in regards to this post, it'd be fair to say that pete is generally more open, tolerant and knowledge of indie and other sounds, whereas i am a techno purist and elitist. i know there are problems with that, but i figure it is better being open and honest about my position.

3. in terms of what i wrote originally, please keep in mind that i distinguished between listeners and reviewers. my complaint was primarily leveled the latter, not the former. while i may not completely agree or comprehend the way some people may relate to music, at the end of the day, that is their prerogative and i am fine with that. reviewers, however, are a different matter. because reviewers play an important role in shaping tastes and in framing the way people approach/understand/comprehend music (especially for 'outsiders' - in this case indie listeners), there is a problem is reviewers dont have a proper understanding and knowledge of the music. reviews based on a limited comprehension of the music and the context within which it operates helps to (re)produce a false/inaccurate/unfair representation of what techno/house/mnml/whatever is.

4. and it is at this structural level that listener and reviewer are related. in (re)creating inaccurate frames of reference and representation, reviewers may prevent or limit the way new listeners (read 'outsiders') comprehend the music. techno - broadly understood - can be quite a hard genre to get in to, so guides like reviewers and so on - do make a difference. this is why it matters what they are saying. these kind of societal/structural dimensions are really important, but ones that we often tend to overlook/ignore.

5. i better stop there! thanks again to everyone that has contributed so far. this discussion has been really worthwhile.

Sorry - looks like I started a trend. I wasn't the...

2008-03-19T08:10:00.000+11:00

Sorry - looks like I started a trend. I wasn't the rude one by the way...

Are you all going to submit them as Anon? We'd hav...

2008-03-19T07:47:00.000+11:00

Are you all going to submit them as Anon? We'd have a helluva time name-dropping you all. Mind you, if you're anonymous AND abusive, you'll definitely get published - hey, that's a great idea, and a wonderful way to add your important voices to the discourse... (ahem)

Guys, could you please help by using a nickname or something? We really want to keep the comments box open and unmoderated, but that requires a level of civility on your part. Feel free to gatecrash, but don't pee on our rug...

Maybe we should submit some articles to Pitchfork....

2008-03-19T07:06:00.000+11:00

Maybe we should submit some articles to Pitchfork.

I have to agree with other Anonymous that Sherburn...

2008-03-19T03:53:00.000+11:00

I have to agree with other Anonymous that Sherburne is a tad annoying himself. Great taste in music, but it does seem to me that with Pitchfork you either get these baby’s first techno album type reviews, or really in-depth name dropper columns like Sherburne’s, which go way over the head of most Pitchfork readers and probably just do more to keep indie kids away from “good” techno than get them into it. Stylus magazine, before they went under, had a blog that, judging from the reactions of my more “indie” friends, did a good job of highlighting dance records while still keeping it fairly interesting for indie readers. Unfortunately, Pitchfork has yet to really strike that balance in either their reviews or columns.

I don’t think the Coltrane comparison is really a good one, we’re talking about two entirely different things here. Coltrane made jazz music for jazz fans, of course they had high standards. If Pitchfork was writing their reviews with techno fans in mind I’d agree with you, but they review albums for indie fans, who I wouldn’t really say have “lesser” standards, but have entirely different standards.

So I don't like people who deliberately create the...

2008-03-19T00:21:00.000+11:00

So I don't like people who deliberately create the false impression that they're knowledgeable in front of people who don't know any better. That's who.

The second line from that Pop Ambient review irrit...

2008-03-19T00:17:00.000+11:00

The second line from that Pop Ambient review irritates most: 'The label's prominence and a growing critical reputation have yet to elevate the awareness of the series to those not predisposed to German electronic music.' - this is totally misleading (though I realise we're not talking WMD 45 minutes here) - so my friend whose favourite music is made by Scott Walker, the Beach Boys and My Bloody Valentine, and reads Pitchfork every day, goes away thinking that Kompakt is the big/important/well-regarded name in techno these days. Clearly bollocks though it's not his fault. He liked the Field record a lot by the way, but wasn't encouraged to explore further because Pitchfork don't put anything else interesting in front of him...

And there are bridges, too, I might add. I think t...

2008-03-19T00:15:00.000+11:00

And there are bridges, too, I might add. I think the responses show that.

The po-mo take is that there's plenty of room for ...

2008-03-19T00:13:00.000+11:00

The po-mo take is that there's plenty of room for everyone in the new mediascape, and so this kind of 'gatekeeper' function is redundant. If you don't like the way X reviews it, read Y, Z, and Q etc.

But part of the reason we started the sausage blog was because we felt that there wasn't enough light and shade, and that there was a de facto policy of 'don't ask, don't tell' when it comes to stinky records.

My feeling on this is that, sure, if it's a minor artists first EP and they're going to sell 300, then sure - they need support, not biting from sites... BUT... what about big records from established artists?

I feel like some sites simply aren't critical enough.

Also, having a de-facto policy of 'positive review or no review' has the cumulative effect of making ANY negative review seem out of place, unwelcome, even threatening.

My personal point of view is that this has the potential to create a culture of boosterism - and certainly, you can see this from forum responses on RA to key records. People get really pissed if you don't praise their favourite artist (like you're supposed to)... this has been a big back/forth idea with me and some other critics for a while now, so maybe I'll finally turn it in to a post.

I don't know if you can make such distinctions between style and content, when one carries the other and both are demonstrative of a way of thinking - both interact, all are loaded with assumptions, cues - none of it's accidental, unless the writer is in their second language and still merely struggling to communicate 'the point'.

...one of the consistent threads here is people's objection to Pitchfork though, one that's intensified by its clout, especially in the US.

But their success isn't accidental. On some level it's what people want (even if it's not all the people all the time). Their 'stance' embodies something of a particular way of seeing and being in the world... oh, and they rule... :)

But I dunno... there are forums, and there would be bridges if people wanted to build them.

Maybe, as an indie-cum-electronics-cum-metal/hc/po...

2008-03-18T23:33:00.000+11:00

Maybe, as an indie-cum-electronics-cum-metal/hc/postpunk fanatic, i need to also point out that similarly, although to a lesser extent, there's a huge difference between the month in metal articles and metal reviews. On top of that there are a lot of indie-fans who completely cringe at some of their indie-reviews content-wise but even moreso style-wise.

I'm not entirely sure whether that XLR8R review gets all your slack because of it's content. I'm betting you there's tons blogs focused on electronics where people write raving reviews on it. I have a feeling you're more annoyed by the style. So am I, but those sites do it with plenty of their other reviews as well. Pitchfork is however a very important player in music, writing out of one the most important countries in the world (ahem) so they have quite an impact. The downside is that electronics in the USA is only half as mainstream as it is in other places (regardless of how many of the originators of the genre can be found in detroit, chicago and NYC).

As if you needed another example here is an annoyi...

2008-03-18T22:37:00.000+11:00

As if you needed another example here is an annoying Pitchfork review: http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/record_review/49256-pop-ambient-2008 - though what irritates me more is that they limit their 'techno' reviews to Kompakt, Warp, Burial and Villalobos, and create a massively distorted view of what's being released. The 'month in techno' is different obviously, though quite annoying too for entirely different reasons (ooh look at me, I slept on Magda's sofa last night), but Joe Indie doesn't ever read it. What would spark their attention would be, say, reviews of 12"s or at least label complilations (admittedly they covered the Cadenza one)... though I guess we've got Resident Advisor for that...

"New anon here.I'd just like to say go fuck yourse...

2008-03-18T22:06:00.000+11:00

"New anon here.

I'd just like to say go fuck yourself to the so-called purists who need Es to enjoy good dance music. Purist my arse. You're just as bad as ignorant indie kids... fucking minimal scenesters. You're not techno purists, you're minimal wankbags."

Nice one Anon. What a nasty, stinky, cowardly little stinkbomb you've left us... that, and 'minimal wankbags', which I quite like - maybe we should re-name the site?